What's Up With the MLG Map Choices?

[SecretSchnitzel]

If one thing has been made obvious recently from the TLN Lans, its that a lot of pros do not like the two forge maps picked by MLG. I've heard all kinds of complaints, most particularly from FB, about how bad the maps are. There also seems to be a lot of complaints that Onslaught and Prophet were not chosen.
Personally, I don't think the two maps are bad per se... But there most definitely are better maps out there and ones the pros like at that. So whats the deal? Why don't we give the pros what they want. Onslaught and Prophet are sure as hell a lot funner to play and watch, and if the pros want 'em I say they should get 'em!

What are your thoughts?

[Legendary Pelon]

Couldnt agree more, probably even throw in their some Classic Epic Remakes!!

[itzcritty]

Absolutely man!! Cant stand the forge maps either.

[SaLoT]

Ponytar and Kc did the best they could and i applaud them for this.

Ya i am disappointed that Onslaught is not in it, but i glad to see nimbus and deathstarOG get recognized for the hard work they have done. As for my thought on the maps, Nexus needs same side spawns on slayer or just switch the gametype to CTF. As for Element, I don't like the maps since every step you take is another height variation and it get annoying and with the pointless bottom middle. I just say give it time and the maps will get better and Kc will switch Nexus Ts with Nexus CTF.

[vesslux]

Aren't we about due for a good lockout remake to be back on the circuit :P

[TechSlayer]

I've been starting to like Element and disliking Nexus more because I noticed the poop spawns.

[ZeroCool]

I heard there has been alot of testing on a new onslaught, i hope they bring that back

[SecretSchnitzel]

Talked to TaK today about the current maps he's looking at and he's pushing mainly for "unique" maps, many of which will not be popular with pros and the general community. I've got a strong feeling that the only way Onslaught or Prophet, or any real good map actually, will make it is if KC looks into them himself as TaK seems to have no intention of pushing for such maps. :/
I'll put it this way, TaK thinks Shelter is a good map. :/

[N!TRO]

Personally I applaud all of the forgers bc I know what it takes to forge. I feel select, prophet and onslaught should have been picked. I like nexus for slayer only and element, to open for me. But I understand the extensive pressure it is for tak, ponytar and kc for picking the current mlg maps and future maps. And for the pros, what do you really want? I mean make a call and tell the ops team what the pros want. But oh well thats my rant.

[StarfishDTR]

It sucks that there isn't a multitude of bungie made maps that are similar to the ones from past games. I dont really like the Idea of four forged maps that all have the same layout :(. Although I do see these maps becoming more enjoyable the more they are played, I would have really liked the onslaught remake and the Pit remake that SaLoT did.

[nikdaquick1219]

Element is great. Nexus is just Pit slayer at the end of Halo 3, too slow. I don't think Nexus slayer, Sanc bomb, or Zealot bomb will be gametypes in v4.

[iRitch]

Definitely wish that it was 2 different maps that got chosen...I have not played on the 2 new maps yet enough to hate them :P but with the playlist update tomorrow i'm sure i will be playing on them quite a bit

[Bleuprint]

As for Lockout, check out Mac xL's version in the "Classic Playlist" tomorrow. It's definitely the best lockout I've seen (and I've seen quite a lot). Nexus slayer was a huge fail, it really plays flag much better, slayer on it is just weird. I'd expect a swap to Nexus flag in v4. At the least, since some think remakes are a bit lame to put in, throw up Onslaught, it was a forged map anyway and plays great on Reach and Select is an original solid map with great gameplay that deserves to be in. Not a fan of Element, but I think that's more personal, I don't hear as many complaints about Element.

Hopefully we see some cool fixes in v4.

[gazurk]

I say no more midship. It has been in the circuit for a few Years now and is starting to get stale. I think a Lockout remake would be good. That hasn't been on the circuit for a while.

[itzcritty]

I would just like to say that what I mean by "I hate the forged maps" mean that I hate these forged maps for MLG play. I do recognize the complexity and effort put into these maps by very skilled forgers and am in no way implying anything offensive to them. I have enjoied quite a few maps produced by these very talented forgers, I just simply do not like the latest one to come out for MLG.

[Morgan]

I like them maps, you just need to play them enough. Also FB complains about every new map (not a valid argument there)
The gametypes are mixed up I think? Should be just CTF on element or something but I don't know. They are really great maps, and we really need to stop going back to REMAKES, sure they're cool, and we love them, but we gotta get some more original maps/ideas in here.

[itzcritty]

we really need to stop going back to REMAKES, sure they're cool, and we love them, but we gotta get some more original maps/ideas in here.

I agree that we need a solid mix of the two but I think we can all agree on a Lockout remake, argueably the best map in Halo, would be the best. not to be confused with H3 poor attempt to remake it with blackout.

[Morgan]

That is a good map that I would like to see get remade, sadly I've only played the H3 version :(

[KRILLIN]

I really like watching Element and Nexas is ok until they get to the standoffs at the end. I really hope they bring back some of the classic maps though. Those are always fun to watch and play on.

[itzcritty]

That is a good map that I would like to see get remade, sadly I've only played the H3 version :(

I've played the one for Reach for about 5 minutes and from what I could tell it was pretty much an exact remake of Lockout! granted I was just running around and not actually playing a game but to me it looked phenomenal!

[skillzy]

Mac xL's lockout redux is t he best lockout remake I've seen.

[gazurk]

I think that nexus is mostly like The Pit in terms of gameplay and such. I think it is an ok map. Element plays really fast and it reminds me of Wizard from halo 1. The playlist maps(Retroactive and Android) i think are terrible. They don't seem like maps that would play well. I wish that 343 industries would look to the past Halos and see how to make better maps. Maps that are not gigantic with low gravity places every where. Maps like Guardian and Direlect that just were simple and enjoyable while still having a competitive aspect to them.

[Jewjitsu]

Nexus slayer is one of the worst gametypes in MLG history. it is the most boring thing i've ever seen, and it is a standoff every time. pit slayer was a standoff but usually only towards the end. nexus is a standoff after the first 3 kills. KC is not doing a very good job right now. i personally don't like element very much either, there's not enough color and i can never figure out what part of the map i'm on. and it's too round.
mac xL's lockout is good, and has no lag, but it isn't perfect. bottom middle is a little screwed up, and the pathways from bottom mid to br1 and bottom mid to snipe are not straight across in halo 2's lockout. that should be fixed, unless he's done that already. anyways, i would definitely like a lockout remake, if it is 100% exact. i'm not sure if it will work as well with the jump height in reach, though. i think they should use the beaver creek, warlock, and midship(prophet) remakes from the bungie classic playlist, and trash element and nexus. people love classic maps, and those are excellent remakes. unless kc does something different in v4, i'll probably play mostly classic, unless the ar/pistol starts piss me off.

[FUBAR]

The worst thing about forge maps is the frame rate problem you get with some of them and then the fact just about everything is Gray.

I think countdown needs to go or get changed it's a bad map how it is currently and something should be done.

[cF WiNGER]

NGL used Onslaught for their more recent tournament in Orlando and it worked great from what I heard. I REALLY REALLY hope onslaught is put in for v4 in replace of Nexus. I think it could have gone either way with Prophet and Element, and KC chose Element because of how the game played. Maybe he thought it played just a little better. As for the Classic remakes, they are being made with the Classic settings in mind. So I don't think many of them will work for the normal Reach/MLG settings. Mainly the jump height and gravity.

[Highjinx]

I can understand they want new maps on the circuit, but i feel as if the 2 maps that were picked were rushed and not though out properly. Why not use the good remakes of like lets say Onslaught, midship, or lockout for the first few version of MLG. Then when more competitive forged maps, that are both aesthetically appealing and have smooth gameplay, are released they can think of replacing the maps that don't seem to be running smooth on the circuit.

[Briimstone]

Well, I personally LOVE element, both Slayer and flag. I love the fast pace of the game. But I agree with Salot how he spoke of the pointless bottom middle and the height variations. Nexus is not a preferred map of mine, but I also havn't played much of it. I wish Prophet had put in, it played out pretty well to me. I never got a chance to play on that Onslaught remake, but I'm sure that played out well also. I think after Dallas and CBus we will all have a newer perspective on the maps, so lets just wait a little.

And I'm pretty many of the pros didn't like Prophet. Not positive, but I think I remember Pistola saying they were laggy.

[Imp3nded]

All I've heard is good things from pros about Element. Nexus, that's a different story.

[Luke]

Element is great. Nexus is just Pit slayer at the end of Halo 3, too slow. I don't think Nexus slayer, Sanc bomb, or Zealot bomb will be gametypes in v4.

Agree with this 100%

[Toomuchmooin]

I like the new maps mostly because I think a new game needs some new maps, some remakes are okay but i like seeing some freshness...

But nexus is gross so I would like to see a replacement there

[gazurk]

I want to start a petition or something and send it in to 343 Industries and get them to make 3 competitive maps instead of a medium, a giant and an invasion/firefight map. They can do so much better with the tools they have and they could use different terrain than the boring steel color of all the forged maps.

[SaLoT]

I want to start a petition or something and send it in to 343 Industries and get them to make 3 competitive maps instead of a medium, a giant and an invasion/firefight map. They can do so much better with the tools they have and they could use different terrain than the boring steel color of all the forged maps.
you would have to get over 1,000,000 signatures to even gain the attention of 343 to produce a map.

[gazurk]

you would have to get over 1,000,000 signatures to even gain the attention of 343 to produce a map.

True. On average there is about 1,500 people in the mlg playlist so that would be kind of difficult.

[Nimbus]

I like them maps, you just need to play them enough. Also FB complains about every new map (not a valid argument there)
The gametypes are mixed up I think? Should be just CTF on element or something but I don't know. They are really great maps, and we really need to stop going back to REMAKES, sure they're cool, and we love them, but we gotta get some more original maps/ideas in here.

This^^^^^

Oh and sorry for making Nexus so shitty for you guys, it wasn't made for Slayer. Deathstars and I designed it for Flag/Bomb/Hill. But KC thought other wise. I'd like to see how Nexus slayer played with side specific spawns, that would give you a reason to push out of your base... but Death thought it would be too easy to spawn camp...

[SecretSchnitzel]

Apparently a lot of the pros think Nexus is a place holder. Its an alright map, but there are soooooo many better maps out there. I still think Element is fairly solid though.

@Nimbus, I lol'd. :P

[N!TRO]

Wow, this thread has got some hate towards the forging community. I might speak for most of the forgers here. When we post our maps, we want the best feedback that we could get. If the map is crap, its crap. If it needs work, what do we need to fix. And if the map is just plain awesome that kind of feedback is a plus. So, when we post maps here on TLN or on the MLG forum (http://forums.majorleaguegaming.com/forum/345-halo-reach-forge-world/) just give us feedback so the next versions of MLG will be better. The Ops team I believe are doing the best they can do, with the amount of maps that they have to go through. I think TLN should have a section for the forged maps to look at.

[chris_cr33p]

i dont want remakes. games chang for a reeason new everything!!!!!

[Bleuprint]

i dont want remakes. games chang for a reeason new everything!!!!!

But if they play better than the current maps then they should be in for the moment at least until we get some better maps.

[mrkillboy]

Onslaught was a horrible map in H3, it's a horrible map in Reach. There is no reason such a horrible map should be in both games. Prophet, is an amazing remake. There are some things that could be fixed. But, all in all, it's amazing.

[PK Toolboxxx]

This^^^^^

Oh and sorry for making Nexus so shitty for you guys, it wasn't made for Slayer. Deathstars and I designed it for Flag/Bomb/Hill. But KC thought other wise. I'd like to see how Nexus slayer played with side specific spawns, that would give you a reason to push out of your base... but Death thought it would be too easy to spawn camp...

yeah i hate that they put in for only slayer. it works so much better with flag and hill.


Onslaught was a horrible map in H3, it's a horrible map in Reach. There is no reason such a horrible map should be in both games. Prophet, is an amazing remake. There are some things that could be fixed. But, all in all, it's amazing.
i have to disagree with you on this on. Ons was a fun fast paced map for flag, and i think it showed who had the best br time and time again. Prophet is sick though lol...

[xl Faybian lx]

Wow, this thread has got some hate towards the forging community. I might speak for most of the forgers here. When we post our maps, we want the best feedback that we could get. If the map is crap, its crap. If it needs work, what do we need to fix. And if the map is just plain awesome that kind of feedback is a plus. So, when we post maps here on TLN or on the MLG forum (http://forums.majorleaguegaming.com/forum/345-halo-reach-forge-world/) just give us feedback so the next versions of MLG will be better. The Ops team I believe are doing the best they can do, with the amount of maps that they have to go through. I think TLN should have a section for the forged maps to look at.

I hate the fact that people think that forging is easy, ideas are easy, and that there ideas are better than yours. So, please just give feedback instead of acting like you are better than the forger. Unless your Salot, Pulse, Unoverrated, deathstar, or Fritz. Other than those there is no talking.

[mrkillboy]

I hate the fact that people think that forging is easy, ideas are easy, and that there ideas are better than yours. So, please just give feedback instead of acting like you are better than the forger. Unless your Salot, Pulse, Unoverrated, deathstar, or Fritz. Other than those there is no talking.

Everyone thinks they are better than the other person. Human nature.

[SecretSchnitzel]

I hate the fact that people think that forging is easy, ideas are easy, and that there ideas are better than yours. So, please just give feedback instead of acting like you are better than the forger. Unless your Salot, Pulse, Unoverrated, deathstar, or Fritz. Other than those there is no talking.

LMFAO! Some one hasn't really spent much time scoping out the forge community. You're making a generalization that getting a map into the circuit equates to being a good forger. You're over looking design cycles, design philosophy and how luck plays a role in it all. There are plenty of other forgers that are just as good (and better in some cases) than the ones you listed such as Solo, Sethiroth, Nexn, etc, etc. And I'm just listing the "veterans" here.

Know who's advice I value the most when I'm in the testing phases of a map? The top players that are playing on it. I'm not meaning the best scrub who finishes highest, but legitimately good players who stand a shot at placing somewhere in MLG. Forgers will talk a map to death and argue little things like aesthetic value and design theories, players will tell you what worked/didn't and how much they liked it. Most forgers suck at giving feed back. Period.

/rant.

[MichaelMongrel]

Please don't bring back Onslaught. Probably the most repetitive gametype in MLG history. Element does a good job succeeding Onslaught, and it's EVEN BETTER to watch and play.

As far as Nexus goes, I understand why people are complaining about it, but I really like watching this map for some reason. Maybe it's because I don't hate the standoffs as much as other people do.

I think people just want every map to be so open air that there is very little cover to work with.

What was that Onslaught/Midship hybrid SaLoT created near the start of Reach? That wasn't too bad, and that is the closest I would like to get to Onslaught.

[Eclipse]

If one thing has been made obvious recently from the TLN Lans, its that a lot of pros do not like the two forge maps picked by MLG. I've heard all kinds of complaints, most particularly from FB, about how bad the maps are. There also seems to be a lot of complaints that Onslaught and Prophet were not chosen.
Personally, I don't think the two maps are bad per se... But there most definitely are better maps out there and ones the pros like at that. So whats the deal? Why don't we give the pros what they want. Onslaught and Prophet are sure as hell a lot funner to play and watch, and if the pros want 'em I say they should get 'em!

What are your thoughts?

I have to correct you.
1st. Nexus was told to MLG that MIGHT be good at FLAG, and that was the only gametype they tested.
2nd. Prophet/ Midship, does not play well with how Halo Reach plays, Yes its a great remake, but it plays terribly. Right now with the DMR being a single shot weapon it makes unplayable. Due to the major lines of sight on that map.

Maps currently need to have a way to make gameplay flow into areas that reduces long range of sight, this is harder to describe in words before i started to type it.
EX. Nexus, why it is good, it has directionality and cover. Why it is bad, is the fact that nimbus and deathstarOG don't understand or know how to setup spawn areas for this map. (they need to use respawn areas, respawn area weak, and respawn area anti)



Ponytar and Kc did the best they could and i applaud them for this.

Ya i am disappointed that Onslaught is not in it, but i glad to see nimbus and deathstarOG get recognized for the hard work they have done. As for my thought on the maps, Nexus needs same side spawns on slayer or just switch the gametype to CTF. As for Element, I don't like the maps since every step you take is another height variation and it get annoying and with the pointless bottom middle. I just say give it time and the maps will get better and Kc will switch Nexus Ts with Nexus CTF.

I agree with the height variation part, they need to remove those bumps by mid that lead to cuts.

[Bleuprint]

@Eclipse; You're just straight up wrong.

1. Nexus was tested plenty of times for slayer.
2. Prophet plays extremely well on Reach and that's why there has been a call for it to be put in.
3. Nexus doesn't have bad spawning because of Nimbus or Deathstar. They know how to setup spawns for maps and it's basically luck when they work well throughout the game. The spawn system in Reach makes it really difficult to make spawns work properly even when adding weak/anti etc...

[SecretSchnitzel]

I have to correct you.
2nd. Prophet/ Midship, does not play well with how Halo Reach plays, Yes its a great remake, but it plays terribly. Right now with the DMR being a single shot weapon it makes unplayable. Due to the major lines of sight on that map.

Maps currently need to have a way to make gameplay flow into areas that reduces long range of sight, this is harder to describe in words before i started to type it.
EX. Nexus, why it is good, it has directionality and cover. Why it is bad, is the fact that nimbus and deathstarOG don't understand or know how to setup spawn areas for this map. (they need to use respawn areas, respawn area weak, and respawn area anti)


Your arguing for shorter LoS? You like games where every one runs around spamming the DMR constantly? Maps need longer LoS to reinforce pacing and team shotting IMO.
As far as respawn zones go, I also don't agree. Maps should start with a simple respawn zone or individually colored spawn points to set team spawns and be tested as such for the first few games. After analyzing the map in theater, add Weak Zones to any spawn that needs additional weight. Do note that the borders of the zone are not the area of influence for the actual spawn points, the zone simply gives every spawn point in it additional weight.
I find the best playing spawn designs are the ones that use the least amount of zone.

[N!TRO]

I hate the fact that people think that forging is easy, ideas are easy, and that there ideas are better than yours. So, please just give feedback instead of acting like you are better than the forger. Unless your Salot, Pulse, Unoverrated, deathstar, or Fritz. Other than those there is no talking.

Was that in a direction thinking I am a better forger than those listed above? Kinda confused where you were going with this.

[icy.]

I'm just now seeing Element and Nexus. I really have been gone for too long. :[

[vesslux]

On a completely different note, why cant bungie/343 let us change colors? why is EVERYTHING for the most part grey?

[SaLoT]

On a completely different note, why cant bungie/343 let us change colors? why is EVERYTHING for the most part grey?
Who cares if it is pretty?

If you can tell where you are at then don't complain.

I am pretty sure FB will not stop during a game on main stage and say wow that is a really pretty building....

I rather something look bad and play good, then something look good and play bad.

@Onslaught rant: Onslaught is needed in Reach and play extremely well.

[xl Faybian lx]

LMFAO! Some one hasn't really spent much time scoping out the forge community. You're making a generalization that getting a map into the circuit equates to being a good forger. You're over looking design cycles, design philosophy and how luck plays a role in it all. There are plenty of other forgers that are just as good (and better in some cases) than the ones you listed such as Solo, Sethiroth, Nexn, etc, etc. And I'm just listing the "veterans" here.

Know who's advice I value the most when I'm in the testing phases of a map? The top players that are playing on it. I'm not meaning the best scrub who finishes highest, but legitimately good players who stand a shot at placing somewhere in MLG. Forgers will talk a map to death and argue little things like aesthetic value and design theories, players will tell you what worked/didn't and how much they liked it. Most forgers suck at giving feed back. Period.

/rant.

I understand what can happen and what can happen. I also happen to understand that there are higher level forgers in the community other than those i listed, those were examples. What I am attempting to say is, if you don't even play on a map before you spread hate about it and think of ways to fix it, you should probably shut your mouth (keyboard). I force my brother onto reach and make him play games with me on my maps, to test them. As he played on every MLG map from isolation to lockout he gives considerable feedback as do his friends. I've never gotten to good of feedback but with this latest map I'm hoping that will change, he likes it so far :). But, incredibly boring speech behind I agree that players give better advice than forgers because forgers think there maps are the most competitive, well balanced, esthetically pleasing maps ever created. They also think of ways they would have changed it and tell you to do it, even if gameplay is not affected in the slightest.

/return rant

[xl Faybian lx]

Was that in a direction thinking I am a better forger than those listed above? Kinda confused where you were going with this.

No, you're a better forger than me, but I'm using them as examples, though I realize now i did not make that very clear :|

[PK Toolboxxx]

Who cares if it is pretty?

If you can tell where you are at then don't complain.

I am pretty sure FB will not stop during a game on main stage and say wow that is a really pretty building....

I rather something look bad and play good, then something look good and play bad.

@Onslaught rant: Onslaught is needed in Reach and play extremely well.

i do wish there was more color. as someone that plays on the maps a lot the get kinda boring too look at. but am i in no way blaming the forgers for that. its not your guys fault bungie gave you shit to work with.

but yes i would like to see ons on the circuit. its a great map and fun to play.

[itzcritty]

@Onslaught rant: Onslaught is needed in Reach and play extremely well.

I agree...Onst was one of the funnest maps to watch on the circuit in my opinion. No power weapons or power ups and fairly small, which guarenteed some of the best teamwork I've seen.

[GunnerDude]

Who cares if it is pretty?

If you can tell where you are at then don't complain.

I am pretty sure FB will not stop during a game on main stage and say wow that is a really pretty building....

I rather something look bad and play good, then something look good and play bad.

@Onslaught rant: Onslaught is needed in Reach and play extremely well.

That statement right there is what competitive gaming is all about, its about the gameplay.

This is why counterstrike 1.6 is still big on the PC, yea its a 10 year old game that looks like crap, but the game play is what makes the game competitive not how the maps look.

[Xzwolf]

Element is not bad, but nexus...

[HavkinKnight]

after playing the Classic Playlist i believe there is pretty much the Rest of the maps we could need till they remake Pit ;) i feel like Magus (warlock) is amazing and some great Moments can come from that. Nobal Creek (battle) can also prove to bring yet again solid play (this is the map Carbon won the 2006 NC on) i can do with out MLG lockout (its a nice walk down memory lane but i just dont feel the same about it anymore and with sprint in the mode it would be kinda silly) High Noon is the same i love Hang em High but its not MLG nore is Hydra but still Prophet, Nobal Creek, Magus they are all GREAT remakes that i would love to see be in MLG and that can really make play awesome.

[MichaelMongrel]

I will honestly be disappointed if Onslaught makes it back in. No offense SaLoT.

[itzcritty]

i can do with out MLG lockout (its a nice walk down memory lane but i just dont feel the same about it anymore and with sprint in the mode it would be kinda silly)

MLG lockout would be the most amazing thing that can happen if you ask me...but I love that map

[SaLoT]

I will honestly be disappointed if Onslaught makes it back in. No offense SaLoT.
Why?
Because it tested teams true team work?

Because it test your communication?

Because the best team will win?

Because Individual talent along with team awareness is key?

Sorry, but that's what i thought competitive is and thats what MLG or Halo needs.

[mrkillboy]

Why?
Because it tested teams true team work?

Because it test your communication?

Because the best team will win?

Because Individual talent along with team awareness is key?

Sorry, but that's what i thought competitive is and thats what MLG or Halo needs.

No. Because it's beyond fucking awful. It needs to stay in Halo 3. Dead, just like the game itself.

[SaLoT]

No. Because it's beyond fucking awful. It needs to stay in Halo 3. Dead, just like the game itself.
You are ignorant... Its funny how bad Onslaught was, well as you say it is. But last time i check it was one of the most popular CTF maps.

Killboy honestly just Shut up..

[Ladnil]

You are ignorant... Its funny how bad Onslaught was, well as you say it is. But last time i check it was one of the most popular CTF maps.

Killboy honestly just Shut up..
Onslaught does not always get the respect it deserves for its place in MLG history, but the haters aren't totally wrong. Onslaught very quickly bottomed out on strategic depth and became a test of little more than BR ability. It should have been replaced and the reason it wasn't was not because it was the best map for the circuit.

[mrkillboy]

SaLoT, you just think it's a good map, or a map worth remembering because you made it, and it made it on the MLG circuit. I used to love Ons, but Ladnil just took the words right out of my mouth.

You think you're a forging God, and I haven't seen a map worth a shit, come from you.

But, that's just my opinion.

[MichaelMongrel]

Why?
Because it tested teams true team work?

Because it test your communication?

Because the best team will win?

Because Individual talent along with team awareness is key?

Sorry, but that's what i thought competitive is and thats what MLG or Halo needs.

Something just isn't right when we wanna bring back a map/gametype that played almost the same way every time. By the start of the 2010 season, we were seeing more and more setups and decision making look quite similar to seasons before.

I'm not saying Onslaught is bad, it's just that there was TOO MUCH of it.

[SecretSchnitzel]

Personally, I'd rather not see Onslaught or a Remake if possible... There are plenty of solid and unique maps out there, but many of these are being brushed off to the side by testers like TaK for crap. While this is going on, I'd rather have Onslaught or a Remake in because the pros like them over the crap we currently are looking at.
The only solid maps that are being considered right now IMO are Android and Retro. Who knows, but maybe after Dallas we'll also have Select up in the consideration as well.

[N!TRO]

SaLoT, you just think it's a good map, or a map worth remembering because you made it, and it made it on the MLG circuit. I used to love Ons, but Ladnil just took the words right out of my mouth.

You think you're a forging God, and I haven't seen a map worth a shit, come from you.

But, that's just my opinion.

Thats coming from a person that believes they were worthy enough for a top 16 team, imo I think you should stop before you rage again and we all know what happens then

[SaLoT]

Onslaught does not always get the respect it deserves for its place in MLG history, but the haters aren't totally wrong. Onslaught very quickly bottomed out on strategic depth and became a test of little more than BR ability. It should have been replaced and the reason it wasn't was not because it was the best map for the circuit.
I said it was rated one of the top Objective maps on the circuit by the pro players. You guys really need to get off this crap about being outdated. Maps are not a cell phone or TV and not even a food. If a map gives you team work, Communication to win, lets individually talented players shine at the same time, i say that is a good map.

Hell when you release Genomo and Android, just a few weeks later i hear there are better maps out there and even that this map is outdated. his was not from me, but from some of your buddies you assumed shared your same opinion.

@MrKillboy: You can't have a debate with out using curse words and rage and i have never stated or express that i am a forge god. No i am a dam good forger and work my ass off even when little punks like you run off at the mouth. You have no idea the shit i have done and been threw and yet i still produce quality maps that give you great LOS, Team communication and team work. So for now on you are ignored.

[mrkillboy]

Quit QQing about people's opinions.

[Antidote]

Quit QQing about people's opinions.

Don't take the term QQ and use it improperly :p

[mrkillboy]

Don't take the term QQ and use it improperly :p

Different usage. QQ from what I understand means, crying because QQ looks like eyes with tears coming from them, or rage quitting.

[MichaelMongrel]

Different usage. QQ from what I understand means, crying because QQ looks like eyes with tears coming from them, or rage quitting.

Man, I'm on your side as far as not wanting Onslaught back in, but you're going a little over the edge about it. Remember that this is the TLN community, so far we've had a good reputation... try to keep it that way.

[Ladnil]

I said it was rated one of the top Objective maps on the circuit by the pro players. You guys really need to get off this crap about being outdated. Maps are not a cell phone or TV and not even a food. If a map gives you team work, Communication to win, lets individually talented players shine at the same time, i say that is a good map.

Hell when you release Genomo and Android, just a few weeks later i hear there are better maps out there and even that this map is outdated. his was not from me, but from some of your buddies you assumed shared your same opinion.

Genome and Android are pretty irrelevant to a discussion of Onslaught. If Android makes v4 and then continues to stick around on the circuit long after it has bottomed out and every game plays out pretty much the same, I'll have the same opinion on it that I had on Onslaught. Getting there first does not mean it should get to stick around forever. The players can learn new maps, and the ones who are unwilling or unable to should suffer for it.

I'm not really interested in getting into a whole debate with you on this though. My only point is that the map was figured out strategically and then it just got to hang around purely because it was first. In a competitive league, the maps ought to support competition, and that means having maps with a lot of strategic depth that support many viable strategies. It shouldn't be purely a test of which team managed to team shoot better in that particular game. If you disagree with any part of that, then I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.

[iUndrground]

I don't understand. Prophet and Onslaught plays 10x better than Nexus. Element is not as good either, but it satisfies players.

"Why doesn't this game have an onslaught???" -FiS

[Bleuprint]

I don't understand. Prophet and Onslaught plays 10x better than Nexus. Element is not as good either, but it satisfies players.

"Why doesn't this game have an onslaught???" -FiS

Apparently, satisfying players is not what they're going for.

[iUndrground]

Apparently, satisfying players is not what they're going for.

I know there is tons of maps better than element(of course onslaught and prophet), but I'm just saying how the map is.

[a Polish Korean]

Apparently, satisfying players is not what they're going for.
Since when has it been about satisfying the pros? It's about bringing the highlest level of competition. Nexus brings that better than Onslaught, Prophet, or Select. If people would stop bitching and actually learned how to play the maps, then maybe they would understand why Nexus deserves to be on the circuit at this very moment. KC did enough catering to the "simplicity" crowd by including Element, which derives its support from the previous liking of Warlock. If you're not happy about the map choices, then you forge. You don't go on the forums of multiple websites and continuously bitch and moan about your map not getting attention and getting cut quickly. This isn't specifically aimed at you Bleu, it is aimed at every forger that sits around thinking that their map is the second coming of Christ, and finds it necessary to pretend that their map is loved unanimously and also finds it necessary to bash the maps currently in consideration. You keep your grievances to yourself. If your map is truly as great as you make it out to be, it would get consideration. Look at Retroactive. That map was never submitted to a submission contest, but it was as good as everyone made it out to be. It has received massive amounts of consideration, and has become one of the front-runners of v4.

I don't know why this wasn't clear the first time:

Sit down. Shut up. Forge.

[PK Toolboxxx]

so as someone who plays on the maps and know nothing of forging i have to say i am not a fan of nexus slayer, were as nexus flag is a decent gametype. as for element i am a fan lol. andriod is eh, i think i have to play it more and i only played select once and it was fine.

as for the debate on onslot. i would like to see it, but i can understand why they wouldnt put it in. its been in the pro cicuit for years now and in order to keep some of the people who have been watching from h3 they need to freshen up the maps. thatsy there is a map "inspired" by warlock, and not the actual warlock. i also think that prophet will not make it into v4 because they want new material.

as for what fear said, this is coming from the team that absolutely would not even give android a chance at a 2 team lan. i dont know how valid his point may be.

[SecretSchnitzel]

Since when has it been about satisfying the pros? It's about bringing the highlest level of competition. Nexus brings that better than Onslaught, Prophet, or Select. If people would stop bitching and actually learned how to play the maps, then maybe they would understand why Nexus deserves to be on the circuit at this very moment. KC did enough catering to the "simplicity" crowd by including Element, which derives its support from the previous liking of Warlock. If you're not happy about the map choices, then you forge. You don't go on the forums of multiple websites and continuously bitch and moan about your map not getting attention and getting cut quickly. This isn't specifically aimed at you Bleu, it is aimed at every forger that sits around thinking that their map is the second coming of Christ, and finds it necessary to pretend that their map is loved unanimously and also finds it necessary to bash the maps currently in consideration. You keep your grievances to yourself. If your map is truly as great as you make it out to be, it would get consideration. Look at Retroactive. That map was never submitted to a submission contest, but it was as good as everyone made it out to be. It has received massive amounts of consideration, and has become one of the front-runners of v4.

I don't know why this wasn't clear the first time:

Sit down. Shut up. Forge.

Made it to the bold and realized I can't take a word you say seriously anymore. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because its April Fools and you're probably pulling my leg. At least I really hope you are... If your serious, gtfo. Nexus is an uninspiring two base sym that was thrown together in a binge forge session, it brings nothing additional to the table that no other uninspiring two base doesn't as well.

I'm not here to QQ about my map being cut aPK, I'm here to point out that the selection process is being poorly conducted, especially since TaK took charge. I don't expect you to see eye to eye on this as it especially favors you, but give him enough time and he's gonna hang himself with his poor decision making.

The biggest issue, however, is that the maps that are wanted by pros are not being legitimately considered. Maps that have proven to work. Maps that play extremely well. Unfortunately the oppinions of the pros don't matter with TaK, or even if a map plays well, what matters is that a map plays "uniquely"... Coincidentally, maps that play "unique" tend to come from his close friends.

(3:20:28 PM) TaK Polymerase: yah, I am really just looking for the maps that will provide the most balanced and unique experiances for circuit play
^Quote taken from a discussion about Pulse's map Shelter, which is NOT by any means a good map at all, however, it is a map that TaK is pushing for in this testing phase.

So please, Polish, get off my nuts. Danke.

[Araneatrox]

I would love the get Onslaught onto the MLG map pool, It was my Fav map back in H3 and it was the map i would always love to watch.

It was a true test of skill, allowing teamshot and some creative work between teams. If you could beat a team on Onslaught flag you knew you were better than that team. No luck, no power weapons, just good old fashioned skill.

Yesterday me and GlobalHD played some MLG, we got Countdown King, Element King. Element Slayer, Nexus slayer and a few others. We also got that map from Killa KC(I cant remember the name) They were some of the worst gametypes/maps that i have ever played. I really don't think i will be playing the MLG playlist anymore

[SaLoT]

Genome and Android are pretty irrelevant to a discussion of Onslaught. If Android makes v4 and then continues to stick around on the circuit long after it has bottomed out and every game plays out pretty much the same, I'll have the same opinion on it that I had on Onslaught. Getting there first does not mean it should get to stick around forever. The players can learn new maps, and the ones who are unwilling or unable to should suffer for it.

I'm not really interested in getting into a whole debate with you on this though. My only point is that the map was figured out strategically and then it just got to hang around purely because it was first. In a competitive league, the maps ought to support competition, and that means having maps with a lot of strategic depth that support many viable strategies. It shouldn't be purely a test of which team managed to team shoot better in that particular game. If you disagree with any part of that, then I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.

Counter Strike 1.5-1.6 has been around for 10 years same maps same playout, but still around and played by thousands still to this day. If the map is competitive then it deserves to stay period. If a map test each teams communication and shot then it should stay as long as the game is around. Every game gets played out the same way, one team wins and one team does not, lets keep these type of maps.

[Moyizzo]

I played Salot's new Narrow's inspired map, and his Onslaught remake. They both play really well. The use of the Jetpack on his "narrow's inspired map" (cant recall the exact name) is absolutely insane and really makes the jetpack a great way to control the map and get some great flanks. MLG is trying out new things. Nexus flag plays great and I think Element Slayer and Flag are decent, but not great. I could really see Onslaught making it back. Had a blast on it.

[wcdd7]

Sit down. Shut up. Forge.
The stupidest mantra ever.

[MichaelMongrel]

I know I would just start getting bored of MLG if they kept bringing back maps that were popular. Bring back Onslaught flag? I'm gonna continue to use that time to make some food, because like Ladnil says, the strategy and simply the way that gametype plays out has just bottomed out and it's the same thing: who can execute the same strategies better.
There is a clear reason why we have a new game on the circuit... and that is to provide a new experience to remember.
I loved Heretic, but I really don't mind if they keep going with new maps.
Too me, Element CTF plays like the new Onslaught. It's a very basic map, and by next season or the season after that, it should be all the same strats... but it still provides the fast paced excitement that Onslaught originally brought.

[SaLoT]

I know I would just start getting bored of MLG if they kept bringing back maps that were popular. Bring back Onslaught flag? I'm gonna continue to use that time to make some food, because like Ladnil says, the strategy and simply the way that gametype plays out has just bottomed out and it's the same thing: who can execute the same strategies better.
There is a clear reason why we have a new game on the circuit... and that is to provide a new experience to remember.
I loved Heretic, but I really don't mind if they keep going with new maps.
Too me, Element CTF plays like the new Onslaught. It's a very basic map, and by next season or the season after that, it should be all the same strats... but it still provides the fast paced excitement that Onslaught originally brought.

Element is no where near Onslaught.

Onslaught is a 2 Base map and Element is a 4 Base.

Sorry, but element is not near what Onslaught brings to the table and they play way different, sorry you really need to know your stuff before you speak.

Element is a Warlock based map that gets played the same way as Warlock does, so new map you talk of is false... Sorry

[XrossFire]

I don't mind nexus I really like element but retroactive isn't that great.

[Imp3nded]

I would love the get Onslaught onto the MLG map pool, It was my Fav map back in H3 and it was the map i would always love to watch.

It was a true test of skill, allowing teamshot and some creative work between teams. If you could beat a team on Onslaught flag you knew you were better than that team. No luck, no power weapons, just good old fashioned skill.

Yesterday me and GlobalHD played some MLG, we got Countdown King, Element King. Element Slayer, Nexus slayer and a few others. We also got that map from Killa KC(I cant remember the name) They were some of the worst gametypes/maps that i have ever played. I really don't think i will be playing the MLG playlist anymore

Nexus Slayer is horrible, I will agree. However, Element is an amazing map and you'll hear the pros say it too. The "Onslaught is a true test of skill" statement is a little absurd seeing how it is the most basic and simplistic map ever put on the circuit. Not to mention I could explain the spawn system on that map to my 7 year old cousin and have him learn it on the first go.

You shouldn't have to force fast gameplay by making extremely small and simplistic maps with 1st grade spawn traps. Onslaught was a basic map with very basic strats and map movement.

[SaLoT]

Nexus Slayer is horrible, I will agree. However, Element is an amazing map and you'll hear the pros say it too. The "Onslaught is a true test of skill" statement is a little absurd seeing how it is the most basic and simplistic map ever put on the circuit. Not to mention I could explain the spawn system on that map to my 7 year old cousin and have him learn it on the first go.

You shouldn't have to force fast gameplay by making extremely small and simplistic maps with 1st grade spawn traps. Onslaught was a basic map with very basic strats and map movement.

Ok Element spawns are predicable by far and its based of warlock same structure same movement.

If Onslaught was such a simple design why didn't you come up with it?

Really imp you don't know map design from a hole in your head.

[Vox]

It sucks that there isn't a multitude of bungie made maps that are similar to the ones from past games. I dont really like the Idea of four forged maps that all have the same layout :(. Although I do see these maps becoming more enjoyable the more they are played, I would have really liked the onslaught remake and the Pit remake that SaLoT did.

SaLoT did a Pit remake?! LINK!?

[mrkillboy]

Ok Element spawns are predicable by far and its based of warlock same structure same movement.

If Onslaught was such a simple design why didn't you come up with it?

Really imp you don't know map design from a hole in your head.

Onslaught had the most predictable spawns ever.

Wizard/Warlock were some of the best maps ever made. They were fast paced and tons of fun.

It's so basic. You can't say you didn't get some kind of idea from Midship. The bases, and A Tower and B Tower were restructured Pink towers and bases from Midship.

Imp may not be some amazing God forger like you, oh mighty SaLoT, but he is giving you feedback.

I don't understand why you think Onslaught should be in MLG on Reach. When there are limitless possibilities to what can be made. Onslaught needs to RIP. We need new maps to work with. Make a map like Onslaught, but mix it up some.

Your new Combine map is sick though.

[Araneatrox]

Mkb and Impended, i can't see your logic here.

The map was competitive, and simple. But for a small Arena map that is what you want. Something that isn't cluttered with Gimics and power weapons(Mauler Herp Derp) was perfect for a test of team skill. The spawns were predictable, if you knew how to set up the spawn system for it. Meaning it was easier for a better and more prepared team to take advantage of the map. Instead of a map like Amplified where spawns were (Somewhat) Random and difficult to predict.

And MKB, Your argument that it's a new game we need new maps isn't really acceptable. Take Counter Strike, De_Dust and De_Inferno has been a map that has been played competitively for 10 years now over the course of 2 games, CS and CSS. If a map is competitive and tests a teams skill and teamwork it shouldn't matter than we get shinny new GFX and a DMR.

Anyway, they are my thoughts on the matter. But hey... What do i know, i only have a Degree in Computer Games Design

Just Fyi, CGD Is Map making. As well as a whole load of other things.

[mrkillboy]

Mkb and Impended, i can't see your logic here.

The map was competitive, and simple. But for a small Arena map that is what you want. Something that isn't cluttered with Gimics and power weapons(Mauler Herp Derp) was perfect for a test of team skill. The spawns were predictable, if you knew how to set up the spawn system for it. Meaning it was easier for a better and more prepared team to take advantage of the map. Instead of a map like Amplified where spawns were (Somewhat) Random and difficult to predict.

And MKB, Your argument that it's a new game we need new maps isn't really acceptable. Take Counter Strike, De_Dust and De_Inferno has been a map that has been played competitively for 10 years now over the course of 2 games, CS and CSS. If a map is competitive and tests a teams skill and teamwork it shouldn't matter than we get shinny new GFX and a DMR.

Anyway, they are my thoughts on the matter. But hey... What do i know, i only have a Degree in Computer Games Design

Computer Games Design isn't map making. Onslaught is a good map. It's simple. Which is good. No clutter. But, with the possibilities of what maps can look like with this new forge, it's just too out dated.

[SaLoT]

Computer Games Design isn't map making. Onslaught is a good map. It's simple. Which is good. No clutter. But, with the possibilities of what maps can look like with this new forge, it's just too out dated.

Ok i built maps all the way back in H1 (Pc) days and still to this day build H1 maps. Forge 2.0 is just a easier version of Halo 3 Forge and thats about it. There is nothing really new except Objects, they gave us a few new shapes and thats about it.

[MichaelMongrel]

Element is no where near Onslaught.

Onslaught is a 2 Base map and Element is a 4 Base.

Sorry, but element is not near what Onslaught brings to the table and they play way different, sorry you really need to know your stuff before you speak.

Element is a Warlock based map that gets played the same way as Warlock does, so new map you talk of is false... Sorry

Element doesn't play entirely like a 4 based map, only in Slayer. In CTF it is a good replacement for Onslaught as it is a fast paced, simple strategy 5 flag map. The only difference is that there is a powerup that plays only a little importance, and a power weapon that when used correctly can be a game changer.

Here's how to play Onslaught:
1. Send two people each up the two streets.
2. Set up one or two players top mid.
3. Have the other two work their way into the base until killing 3 or 4 players on one side.
4. Pull flag and run it in the direction of where you just killed most/all of the opposing team.
5. 3 people look for spawners and put pressure on them.
6. Cap flag.

How to clear your base:
-Bait and switch to kill enemies.

Simple strats. Simple gameplay. = Repetitive games.

I can see Element becoming that, but it is dynamic enough to last for a season or two.

[SecretSchnitzel]

Please, some one explain to me (as I apparently am too dense to comprehend it) how a map is "out dated" or has "bottomed out". If a map is a solid test of a player/team's abilities, does it matter that the strategic depth is shallow? Isn't every map going to "bottom out" to a set plan of how to play in the long run? Why should it matter if the test of abilities is still as fresh as it was from day one? Onslaught has always been a map that put teams to the test, and it still is.

After watching the stream all weekend I must say, Element does play pretty nice. Very fun and exciting games to watch on that map. Unfortunately can't say the same for Nexus. Can anyone say stalemate much? Bloody slower than Pit slayer.

inb4deathstarsappearsandcallsmebuthurtbecausehisma pisbad.

[Ladnil]

Please, some one explain to me (as I apparently am too dense to comprehend it) how a map is "out dated" or has "bottomed out". If a map is a solid test of a player/team's abilities, does it matter that the strategic depth is shallow? Isn't every map going to "bottom out" to a set plan of how to play in the long run? Why should it matter if the test of abilities is still as fresh as it was from day one? Onslaught has always been a map that put teams to the test, and it still is.


Bottoming out means it has no more depth. Depth means that anything you do I can counter and you can counter my counter and I can counter your counter to my counter etc. In other words, there is a metagame going on where teams need to anticipate and react to their opponents' choices in addition to outshooting them. The concept of depth is more commonly applied to competitive games as a whole, especially fighters and RTS games where there is little skill gap between two players' abilities to execute moves than to FPS games where there is a skill gap in the players' thumbs. That doesn't mean it's not applicable though, and maps are where it comes into an FPS.

If we operate under the assumption that every map is going to run out of depth in the long run, then every map should be replaced in the long run until eventually some are found that have the kind of depth that allows for constantly evolving strategies. Such maps are not impossible. Unfortunately it is impossible to determine whether any given map has real depth until it is played extensively at a high level. All you can do is play and play and play until you determine that the metagame has devolved into just one optimal way to play and then throw the map away.

Since I'll take every opportunty I can to link Sirlin articles, I'll do it here (http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions.html). His definitions of balance and depth, and how they apply to competitive multiplayer games. His examples are mostly fighting and strategy games, but it isn't a stretch to see how they apply to decision making and map design in a shooter as well.

[SecretSchnitzel]

Bottoming out means it has no more depth. Depth means that anything you do I can counter and you can counter my counter and I can counter your counter to my counter etc. In other words, there is a metagame going on where teams need to anticipate and react to their opponents' choices in addition to outshooting them. The concept of depth is more commonly applied to competitive games as a whole, especially fighters and RTS games where there is little skill gap between two players' abilities to execute moves than to FPS games where there is a skill gap in the players' thumbs. That doesn't mean it's not applicable though, and maps are where it comes into an FPS.

If we operate under the assumption that every map is going to run out of depth in the long run, then every map should be replaced in the long run until eventually some are found that have the kind of depth that allows for constantly evolving strategies. Such maps are not impossible. Unfortunately it is impossible to determine whether any given map has real depth until it is played extensively at a high level. All you can do is play and play and play until you determine that the metagame has devolved into just one optimal way to play and then throw the map away.

Since I'll take every opportunty I can to link Sirlin articles, I'll do it here (http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions.html). His definitions of balance and depth, and how they apply to competitive multiplayer games. His examples are mostly fighting and strategy games, but it isn't a stretch to see how they apply to decision making and map design in a shooter as well.

I'm not entirely sold on this... But I do like the notion of replacing maps after a given period of time. Keep the circuit fresh, etc etc. Another positive of switching maps out for new ones over time is that is also tests the players ability to learn and master new maps.

[I RiF I]

Maps need longer LoS to reinforce pacing and team shotting IMO.


This. I just feel like we wanted a hit-scan weapon and now that we have it we don't get to use it long range. This is why I like Sanc. I think adding a map or two with longer sight lines would help. I like Element a lot, haven't gotten a good feel for nexus yet but the spawns are awful in all of reach not just nexus (Although the both side spawns add to it). I just think that what everyone here is saying is that variety is the name of the game. I don't see a problem adding Onslaught back because although it is one of the more simplistic maps, it adds variety because it is so gunskill/teamshot oriented. The you can also add a map that is less gunskill more map placement oriented like Countdown is. I don't see a problem adding remakes as long as there are new maps as well. Just my two cents. I like variety.

[PK Toolboxxx]

i think we need something more than remakes. honestly id rather a newly inspired map than a remake of an old map. Salot i have played on your onslot and it is a hell of alot of fun, but i feel like it will get boring over time. honestly id rather see something like downfall, which was fun to play on, then onslot. sorry if it makes all the forgers who want this in reach angry, but we need new maps. to those making original maps keep it up. alot of them are really good.....oh but nexus is awful.

[SaLoT]

Bottoming out means it has no more depth. Depth means that anything you do I can counter and you can counter my counter and I can counter your counter to my counter etc. In other words, there is a metagame going on where teams need to anticipate and react to their opponents' choices in addition to outshooting them. The concept of depth is more commonly applied to competitive games as a whole, especially fighters and RTS games where there is little skill gap between two players' abilities to execute moves than to FPS games where there is a skill gap in the players' thumbs. That doesn't mean it's not applicable though, and maps are where it comes into an FPS.

If we operate under the assumption that every map is going to run out of depth in the long run, then every map should be replaced in the long run until eventually some are found that have the kind of depth that allows for constantly evolving strategies. Such maps are not impossible. Unfortunately it is impossible to determine whether any given map has real depth until it is played extensively at a high level. All you can do is play and play and play until you determine that the metagame has devolved into just one optimal way to play and then throw the map away.

Since I'll take every opportunty I can to link Sirlin articles, I'll do it here (http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions.html). His definitions of balance and depth, and how they apply to competitive multiplayer games. His examples are mostly fighting and strategy games, but it isn't a stretch to see how they apply to decision making and map design in a shooter as well.

We can go back and forth and still come out the same, i can say the same thing about your map genome or aka android. It will play out the same way and will become stale very fast. But if it produces and force team shot and communication and with great lines of sight and introduce 1vs1 up to 4vs4 battles then i say keep it. If a map lets your team work shine as long as your individual shine then i am all for it.

[Ladnil]

We can go back and forth and still come out the same, i can say the same thing about your map genome or aka android. It will play out the same way and will become stale very fast. But if it produces and force team shot and communication and with great lines of sight and introduce 1vs1 up to 4vs4 battles then i say keep it. If a map lets your team work shine as long as your individual shine then i am all for it.

I don't see why you're bringing up Android again. Are you assuming that I'm exempting my own maps from all of this?

[phreekopath]

Best map ever, promotes teamwork, has amazing LOS, extremely low budget, no screen lag.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2100/9coliseum.png

Or we could just make Octagon big enough for 4v4 and every game will be played on that map. Slayer, CTF, Bomb, Ball, and King.

[SecretSchnitzel]

I don't see why you're bringing up Android again. Are you assuming that I'm exempting my own maps from all of this?

I believe he's playing at the notion that you (presumably) believe Android to be a better map, especially considering that its a contender for v4. As Android would evidently fall victim to the same logic of "bottoming out" as Onslaught, why would Android be a better choice in the long run?
Tik for tak... You take a jab at Onslaught, some one's gonna take a jab at Android. Are you really surprised?

All in all, I like Android. I've said it time and time again. And I do support it for v4. Period. Don't take any of the above out of context please.

[SaLoT]

I believe he's playing at the notion that you (presumably) believe Android to be a better map, especially considering that its a contender for v4. As Android would evidently fall victim to the same logic of "bottoming out" as Onslaught, why would Android be a better choice in the long run?
Tik for tak... You take a jab at Onslaught, some one's gonna take a jab at Android. Are you really surprised?

All in all, I like Android. I've said it time and time again. And I do support it for v4. Period. Don't take any of the above out of context please.

Its not even about taking a jab at his map. His layout is a symmetrical 2 base map, it will play out the same way as Onslaught. I have nothing against him or his maps and not taking a crack at it. I like his layout just need to open LOS between the streets.

[MichaelMongrel]

I wanna put this in the nicest way possible: If you don't get a certain map in the pro circuit right now SaLoT, keep working and be open to inspiration from other forgers works. And think outside your own preference. I believe it was you that was complaining about the elevation changes in Element, and not a whole lot of people find that a problem.

All in all, I respect your work, I just want MLG to not get stale.